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My decision that swing trading doesn't work, new strategy ideas, and supporting words from Phil Town

OK, this is obviously not working. I manage to get a lucky hit here and there, but overall I’m losing a few percent here, a few percent there, and it’s “nickel and diming” me into broke-land.

I noted last night that this was also stressed in one of my favorite books on trading, Rule #1 by Phil Town, where he states the following regarding the idea of just using charts to trade successfully:

“In the long run I feel confident that you won’t make any money with [charts] unless you know the value of the business you’re buying. Remember that in the short run anything can happen to the price of a business, but Mr Market has a set of scales and will properly weigh each and every company and give it its correct price at some point.
“If you ignore the Four Ms [essentially, Town's term for the fundamentals he feels are important] and accidentally buy businesses that are priced above their value, the prices of those businesses will eventually correct themselves downward toward the Sticker Price [Town's valuation formula that seems very similar to the PEG ratio].. So, in spite of short-term trends, momentum, and psychology to the contrary, the longer-term trend, momentum, and psychology are going to be downward, as sure as there’s gravity.
"People who buy and sell based solely on these types of [charts] find themselves losing a little here and there over and over as the price of the stock corrects downward toward its real value. Trying to use [charts] to trade a stock that’s headed down is like death by a thousand little cuts. You can lose half a percent or 1 percent or 2 percent only so many times before it starts to really add up to a shellacking."

This has very much been the case for me over the last two years of trying to trade using charting and timing techniques indicated in books like Invest Like a Shark and The Complete TurtleTrader over the last couple of years.

Although it’s possible it’s due to the high volatility of the market during this “learning period” of mine, the fact remains that much more often than not, once I find an entry point described by one of these systems, the rally has already had it’s run, and usually the price begins to drop as soon as I jump in. It has been happening over and over and over and over again.

I “only” put a couple of grand in the market to test the waters, but as if right now I’ve lost nearly all of it. I’m talking around 80% has gone down the toilet.

I really wanted to believe that you could make money hand over fist by just getting good at reading charts – these books and web sites swear it can be done, and there at least seem to be other people out there who are having success at it – but if they are, I’m sure as heck not able to figure out how.

As a result I’m considering large addendums to my strategies: I will start taking PEG ratios into account when deciding what to buy. I’ll try to stick to companies that I, or at least most other people, have actually heard of. The charts will still play a part, but primarily to help find good entry and (if needed) exit points, rather than simply the “if it goes over n SMA or n and n SMA cross over, it’s time to buy” type logic that I keep reading about all over the place even though it doesn’t seem to actually work in anything but a strongly positive market.

Oh, and until I can prove to myself that it actually works, I’m sticking to simulators rather than real money.

I think one of my strongest hurdles is probably going to be my impatience to get in there – always that feeling of “I’m potentially losing money by being out of the market right now!” that I always get when I’m not in. Right now I have about 30 companies on my watch list, and not a single one of them is at a good buy point. I’ve got 5 of those marked as ones to keep a near-term eye on because they could shift into a place where they’d be in a good entry point in the near future, but they may not.

It almost makes me wonder if my dad had the right idea in investing in nothing but CDs and federal savings bonds.

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Posted by Shadoglare on 07/03/09 at 12:42 PM

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mpc220

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mpc220
It almost makes me wonder if my dad had the right idea in investing in nothing but CDs and federal savings bonds.

Well, it'd definitely be easier to sleep at night, no?  But with rates so low right now--and for the last decade, more or less--that strategy goes right out the window.
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DavidDT Trading-to-Win.com

Member since: Jan 08

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Full time trader
Age: 40's
http://trading-to-win.com/, CT
DavidDT Trading-to-Win.com
First I wanted to say: "You made me laugh"
But I don't like to make fun of people.

Then I wanted to say: "You got wrong teacher" (wrong book)
But then I realized that you have already made up your mind and nothing can convince you otherwise. (People want to believe what they PREFER to believe)

Like Ed Seykota said: "Everyone gets what he wants out of market" (Think WHAT it means)

So let me put is in simple terms - if you are ready to open your eyes and LEARN correct trading techniques - I am always willing to help. (NO - I do NOT sell books and do NOT charge for help)

Best wishes in any case

P.S. Your dad would have been highly surprised if he had invested in Money Market accounts with AXA or California bonds



Above is one of the charts I use - it resulted in 900% gain on options contracts of the part of my account I allocated for this particular security over the last 2 years. (that IS the company everyone knows, right? )
In UP and in DOWN market likewise...

P.P.S. OK, just could not help myself "Invest Like a Shark and The Complete TurtleTrader" ?????????????????
YOU GOT TO BE JOKING
That pic looks like Kneale - you don't want to be associated... :)
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DavidDT Trading-to-Win.com

Member since: Jan 08

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Full time trader
Age: 40's
http://trading-to-win.com/, CT
DavidDT Trading-to-Win.com
Not to be an "Empty talker"
Here is the link to one of my "tracking" portfolios (I have multiple brokers accounts - paranoia keeps me alive)
From 6/15/09 in the market when everyone really mad about best scenario NOT making money - in 2 week with 4 trades only - over 10% return.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aj_s4pNQ0E98ck9CSFpEY21IcC1fRGt1TVZWbnE0ZkE&hl=en

And 10% is not actual return - google spreadsheets cannot deal with options - actual return is about 17% in 2 weeks - my best regards to turtles and towns
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TampaJake

Member since: Mar 08

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TampaJake
You might want to consider building your account back up and buying some decent dividend stocks. Do not jump right in, but instead dollar cost average your buys. I like to buy a stock with a minimum $3000 budget to invest in any single position, but prefer $5000. I usually have 4 or more stocks I am trading at any one time in each account.

I trade 2 Roths, 2 traditional IRA's & 1 SEP IRA. (mine and my wife's... yes she trusts me)

I buy right off the charts, but I look for stocks with a positive P/E ratio and decent earnings, that are at least 10% below the lowest closing price of the last 3 highs of the previous 30 days. So if XYZ closed at $5, $4.95 & $4.80 in the last 30 days and is now down to $4.30 this would be a candidate.

I also consider movement. I doesn't do me much good to buy a stock that is not moving either up or down.

When I  find a stock I like I will put only 10% of my money (including commissions) into the stock. If it goes up 10%, I sell my position and look for my next opportunity. If it goes down 10% of my initial buy in, I will  invest another 10% in the stock, and continue to do that regardless of how far the price drops. You can not run out of money this way and most stocks will usually rebound back to their original price over time. I have made 10% within a day and have waited sometimes 30+ days to make 10%. I have also had the same stock for 4 months or more (during market drops) but gained as much as 30% when I sold out.

When the stock bottoms and starts to rise, I sell off gradually until I am in positive territory. I have done this successfully now with 28 of my last 30 trades. I have one that is kind of stagnant and may replace it soon, and I sold Ford for a small loss when there were bankruptcy rumors prior to GM going bust.
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TampaJake

Member since: Mar 08

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TampaJake
As an addendum to my previous post....

I never trade options. Be aware that the purpose of the market is to separate you from your money.
Both stocks and options are very efficient at this if you do not play with a set of rules.

Play with a set of rules you can be comfortable with. I do, and I sleep very well at night.

Good luck trading :)
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DavidDT Trading-to-Win.com

Member since: Jan 08

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http://trading-to-win.com/, CT
DavidDT Trading-to-Win.com
TampaJake...
Sounds like one of the possible evaluations strategies, except for "averaging down" part...it work until it does not...
looked at your trade page, may be was not attentive enough - have you made any profit yet?
I might be wrong, but ...EVERY SINGLE trade on page 1 is a LOSS???
I guess I know the answer: "This is my gambling portfolio and not the one with 28 out of 30 winners"
Trade well
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Shadoglare

Member since: Apr 08

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Shadoglare
I may need to mention: Other factors that play a role in my trading:

I have very little capital to invest. I had very little when I started, and I have even less now. Even if I was comfortable, I'd probably have maybe $1000 to deal with.

I do not trade options. Everything I've read indicates options are riskier than trading straight equities, so considering my luck with equity trading, I'm not touching options with a 10 foot pole.

I do not day trade. I have one of those "job" things that keeps me away from the computer all day.

Those said, I think I need to reiterate that the point of my posting was not that charts are useless - it was that I need to use them as one of the tools in my decision making, rather than the only tool, which has basically been the case for the last couple of years.

Other factors that have been hard-hitting towards my losses:
A) Rolling the dice on 3X funds such as FAZ. This caused a 40% loss in one trade, and that wasn't the only loss from this fund. All 3X funds have now been removed from my radar.
B) Use of stops. I am still torn on these, because I have had many, many occasions where a stock price dropped just low enough to cause my stop to kick in, only to go back up again immediately after.
C) Fear of losses causing me to miss out on gains. This also happens a lot, and I feel I might be more comfortable with these companies with strong PEGs.
There's a part of me that knows that more often than not, if the MACD is in positive territory, the price will more than likely continue on an upwards trend, even if it has down days. But I've had this not be the case enough times that I'm paranoid, and set stops at around 8%, which usually causes me to miss out on gains that happen after the dip. *however,* not using a stop caused horror stories like the previously mentioned 40% loss.

So - again, I'm not saying charts are useless. I'm just saying I think my chances of success are likely to increase if I put more thought or research into the companies whose charts I'm tracking, and by chosing less volatile charts.
Also, using only charts as a guide, I have been horrible at chosing jump-in points. Most of my reading suggests waiting for a trend to be established - this usually means that an upwards trend has already been running for several days at least. Again, I've been finding that if I use this method, almost always this rally peters out shortly after I've gotten in.
And I'm working with such small capital that to not have a loss, I have a gain of at least 2% to break even.
However, what *usually* happens is that the stock dips right away, causing my stop to kick in, usually causing a loss of about 8-10%.

In short, I'm thinking among the changes I need to make is not only using PEGs (or P/Es as others suggested, though it appears to be arguable which is a better indicator) to help in chosing the stock, but I also need to learn get in earlier - which appears to be more along the lines of looking for a postive MACD crossover within the last day or two matched up with positive stochastic movement.
My tests on the virtual portfolio will see how this works out.
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DavidDT Trading-to-Win.com

Member since: Jan 08

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http://trading-to-win.com/, CT
DavidDT Trading-to-Win.com
"A) Rolling the dice on 3X funds such as FAZ. This caused a 40% loss in one trade, and that wasn't the only loss from this fund. All 3X funds have now been removed from my radar."

Ultra ETF ARE options and futures and time decay is worse than of options - these are day trading instruments

"B) Use of stops."
All traditional stops techniques are flowed.
If stops are to be implemented (on CLOSING basis ONLY) - they have to be based on vloatility of that SPECIFIC security you are trading.

"C) Fear of losses causing me to miss out on gains."
Understood - the reason - you don't have system, not even a bad one, you just think that what you do might be called a system.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to make you feel bad in no way, you sound like a nice person with no proper guidance.

In your particular case with $1000 you can afford to lose - options are the ONLY way to make money.
You got 10 shots - $100 each - and I would NOT recommend to take ANY unless, as you fairly stated, you will prove to yourself that your new strategy works (the only problem - no single strategy works every time)

Stop by in my trading room (if you get a chance with your day job)

One word of advise - do not touch oscillators - they work ONLY in hindsight and don't believe anyone who will try to sell you different opinion.

Another advise if I may - spend $20 on this book and forget that you've ever read any others.(NO - there is no hidden affiliate link here :)
http://www.amazon.com/DeMark-Indicators-Bloomberg-Market-Essentials/dp/1576603148/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246658507&sr=8-1

Good luck and if you are interested in continuation of conversation you will have to email me - I am out of here :)
DavidDT
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BeretDude

Member since: Mar 09

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Retired early, but working a pt job just to keep myself from laying around on the couch all day. :)
Age: 50's
Palm Harbor, Florida
BeretDude
"People who buy and sell based solely on these types of [charts] find themselves losing a little here and there over and over as the price of the stock corrects downward toward its real value. Trying to use [charts] to trade a stock that’s headed down is like death by a thousand little cuts. You can lose half a percent or 1 percent or 2 percent only so many times before it starts to really add up to a shellacking."


I can understand your feeling like that about stocks headed downward, but that is where the true beauty lies in charting.. Seeing those downward spirals and turning your trade around and  going short on it.  It really is a two way street.. things go up and down around here.  You just have to decide where you fit into the grand scheme of things.
I understand when you say you work, so you can't be active.   But use the time when you are not working to actually look deep within a chart.. become familiar with a particular stock and watch it.. for several days if you must...  watch for some of the points of support and the points of resistance it has demonstrated.  If you see none, then move on.. there are thousands of stocks out there.. find one that has a 'feel' to it.   And then when you have a day off work, use the time to actually track that trade from dusk to dawn.  Become one with it.. learn by it.  and you will find a door slowly start to open for you.

Only you can decide if you are to be an Investor or a Trader.  No one else can make that decision for you.


Happy Trading.    /:)
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rackir

Member since: Aug 08

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rackir
Your Trades arent Utterly horrible,you seem to have been seduced by FAZ/FAS tho,always remember both of these ETF's are daytrading vehicles,if you are still holding it when your Buy settles then you are losing money.

Alot of your buys you seem to be "jumping on the bandwagon",stock is within a few % of its peak and down it goes.
If your buying a stock that by the time you buy it has already moved 10-20% then you need to stop and ask yourself.
"why has this stock moved 20%?"
If its "one piece of news" then you already have a potential -20% risk on a pullback right?.

Research the companies,what does thei debt look like? do they have enough cash on hand to continue without dilluting the stock?


Heres a funny one...
Look at what people are buying at TK,i pay attention to the leaderboard purchases and pay special attention to the folks who seem to be buying the same type of stuff that i normally do(i have alerts set for them),if i see them buy something i research it a bit and make a decision.


For what its worth i started playing in the stock market about 16 months ago and my first 6 months were pretty close to horrible,i watched,i learned and i feel pretty comfortable about it now.


I wish you the best of luck,you seem like a good guy.
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incubus

Member since: Dec 08

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Age: 90's
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incubus
Shadoglare, I might suggest researching "Ganns retracement", then take out a calculator and a chart of an equity you'd like to trade.
You could review the average percentage of swings over a six to ten month period, both up and down as well as the most extreme swings of that equity and conjure a percentage to scale into the equity per percentage of drop in value.

ets pretend you were fully aware that a certain equity would consistently swing to a loss of between 10% and -40% repeatedly with a random surprise swing of more every 2 to 4 cycles....this would certainly be a bad stock to trade, but in knowing the average movements of it's price action, you can use it to your advantage.

You could predictively use that hypothetical ten percent to your advantage even though you don't know what percent the drop might be before the rebound, by adding into your postitions in growing amounts per percentile increment of drop in price and then selling at or near the 10% mark from the low.

You'll see many times where you'd left money on the table, and this is fine, the object is to consitently make gains, though often modest, the term "pigs get slaughtered" was coined for good reason. 

TampaJake does almost the same thing, but rather than increase the amount per drop, he stays with a consistant amount, this requires a larger percentage of move up for a gain, but much less nailbiting as the price goes down.

Also, keep in mind, my 10% mentioned above was purely hypothetical, use at least a six month chart to plot the movements of a specific equity and calculate the risks and probabilities for your own style.

Make absolutely certain that your strategy incorporates an "end of days scenario" with cash on the side in the event the market revisits November or March's lows....have a gameplan in mind where you might even swing from long to short in that event.

Rackir has a good point, once a stock has peaked in parabolic fashion, there's more a chance it will reverse than continue up...I recently shorted DNDN on that premise, it had plateau'd at around $24 to $25 so I waited for a spike and shorted it at $25.75, bought more at $26.10 and dumped it at $23.50 within a few days, I did the opposite with MTXX after it had fallen from $19 down to $5 overnight.

I got in at $6.05, $5.15 and $4.40, then sold at $5.74 within a few days for a fast but modest gain.
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BeretDude

Member since: Mar 09

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Trade Notes 32
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Retired early, but working a pt job just to keep myself from laying around on the couch all day. :)
Age: 50's
Palm Harbor, Florida
BeretDude

Shad?  If I may?   It is a good thing that you show your trades, because it helps to explain a few things about your trading style and how you may find it worthwhile to change up a little.....

http://community.tradeking.com/members/shadoglare/trades


That is your most current page of trades.. i looked at most of them and saw pretty much the same trend... you are buying high and selling low.  Trust me, that won't make you any money.

Lets look at that first page a min..

On Monday, you bought BIOS  for  $5.91  and sold it on Thursday for  $5.47  .. so you held it for 3 days

On 6/17/09, you bought SDS for $56.71 and sold it the next day for  $55.49 and it is currently at $57.84

On 5/19/09, you bought MOS for $55.55 and sold it just over 2 weeks later for $53.18

I think you get the idea?..  You need to ask yourself exactly why you are trading stocks?  Are you trading to make money or trading for the fun of it?  Cause you are paying a lot of commissions and taking losses on most of your trades.

I think you may need to first of all, make more rational decisions about which stocks you want to buy, and secondly, decide how long you can hold them for?  

You can ask anyone, and they will all agree that you can't sell stocks for a loss and make money.

Sorry, if I seem like I am criticizing your trading style, but just calling it as I see it.

I don't confess to make the smartest decisions about some of my trades either, which are also available to see and critique.

I hope you find what works for you , that actually makes you money.

Happy Trading...  /:)

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CrazyCow

Member since: May 09

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CrazyCow
I am also a pretty new trader, and here is what I've learned over the past few months.
1. Don't mess with leveraged ETFs. FAZ/FAS can both earn you big money, but the leverage means that you're playing a rigged game which is much easier to lose than to win.
2. Don't trade options. Unless you really know what you're doing it's too easy to lose all of your money, since many options eventually become worthless, whereas stocks will always retain some value and have the potential to become infinitely valuable.
3. For short term trading I've noticed that it's best to trade stocks in the $2 - 10 range (I read this same comment from someone else, but unfortunately I forgot who it was so I can't give them credit). I don't mess with penny stocks because they're too unpredictable, and expensive stocks offer much less profit potential. For example, you'll rarely see a  $50 stock increase to $55 in one day, whereas it's not uncommon to see a $5 stock go to $5.50 in one day.

Good luck with your future trading. I'm still learning lessons as well, but hopefully these few tips will prove to be helpful.
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DannyUpshaw

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DannyUpshaw
I've made money swing trading, and usually come out ok.  The real thing with swing trading is that you have to be prepared to go long if you have to.  I try to turn a "swing trade" around two weeks.  Usually, my goal is a minimum of 10% return in two weeks time.  The trick though, is that you have to buy companies that you are willing to go long on if you have to.  Also, it's usually better to pick high volume companies.  I love trading cheap small caps, but sometimes the volume is a problem. 

In other words, I try to pick stuff like MSFT when it's trading in a pattern.  If the stock goes down, I may have to wait a month or two or three to get my money back, or a profit, but I still don't lose money. 

If I take a loss, it's usually because I wasn't willing to hold for the stock to rise again, or the company that I invested in was too risky to begin with and not worth holding onto because it might not ever go back up.

At least, that's my two cents.  My blog goes back to when I first started trading on TK, and you can read it if you want and see my mistakes and wins.  There's a lot of fluff in there, but a few of my blogs show pretty clear reasonings for why my trades did/did not work out. 
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element6

Member since: Nov 06

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element6
FAS/FAZ....

Look at the long term charts and they are both down big time.  Huge decay.  When I feel like trading them, I will short FAS or FAZ to get the action.  I went long once or twice but quickly noticed gravity is working against them and have vowed not to go long for more than 8 hours.  I bet if you short both at the same time, you will make money in the end. 
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JJL

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JJL
Concentrate your holdings just have only 1 position if you only got 1,000$ to invest. Stop putting stop losses, buy a stock that has good fundamentals and buy it at a very cheap price.