bigdog > Blogs

why doesn’t TK staff publish their trades?

Every once in a while, I get a private message asking this question: why don’t you and the TK staff publish your trading history and positions? What better way to legitimize the ideal of information-sharing that the TK Community stands for, than to put your own money (literally) where your mouth is?

It’s a great point, and when I discussed it again with DannyUpshaw recently, I thought it made sense to blog about it, too. Danny had suggested a good compromise might be to put some small amounts of money into stocks, so that I’d always have a few basic long positions to show the community where I stood on a few issues. As Danny noted, “That would be some minor way for you to participate in the openness that TradeKing encourages without actually showing your real holdings.”

As I wrote Danny, I really wish the TradeKing folks and I could participate in Certified Trades and exemplify the transparency we're encouraging other traders to adopt, but the fact is that compliance regulations are very restrictive on this point. Neither TK nor our staff are registered investment advisors, and technically showing our own positions via Certified Trades could be construed as an implicit recommendation to buy or sell. I really wish we could practice the transparency that we preach, but I've had this debate within our walls several times, and I have a feeling even Danny’s modest suggestion wouldn't fly for compliancethem. Too bad, but I gotta respect the rules.

One thing I forgot to mention to Danny: anyone who blogs as a TK staff member or guest commentator must disclose any positions they’re holding that relate to the blog content – but we encourage folks to take an even higher road and not blog about stocks or positions they hold at all. So, all our All-Star commentary happens on stocks that our in-house and guest experts are not themselves holding; same for the TradeKing blog, Brian Overby aka the Options Guy, and myself. We think that’s the most legit way to do business honestly.

Let me know if you have any questions or thoughts about this policy. It’s super-important to us that all our community members feel good about our policies regarding staff participation in the TK Community, so we want you to understand the reasons behind the policy. We respect you guys too much not to give you a straight answer – even if it’s a little disappointing – about why we roll the way we do.

[image: Vitruvian by Mr. Enjoy on flickr]

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Follow the markets at the TradeKing Blog, learn options strategies from the Options Guy, or check out expert commentary on real client trades at TK All-Stars.
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Posted by bigdog on 04/28/08 at 03:29 AM

Tag It | 1 user tagged it: TradeKing, Don, Montanaro, CEO, Certified Trades

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corbinb2

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corbinb2

My suspicion was that it was regulatory in nature, but thanks for coming clean...:0)

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WallStreetKing

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WallStreetKing

Absolutely,I think of Tradeking as my payraise professional. Will I ever suggest any stock or write about one that I own, sure, I might mention that I don't own any position in a stock. That means I am only considering, because of recent news or just because it is on my mind. Since I hold these parameters for myself, I do not expect others that are in the business to disclose their holdings, that would mean i would have to keep up with my portfolio and theirs, I just don't have that kind of time. PEACE

pic from Payraise site

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DannyUpshaw

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I thought regulatory issues could be a concern, but I didn't realize that the rules were so strict.  I guess that even obviously innocent transactions could be construed as stock "endorsements" by the company.  Anyway though, I'm glad to know the details.  --Thanks for letting us all know the exact reasoning. 

Question: So, employees displaying their ROI is off limits too? Even if we can't see the investments, displaying the ROI might give them some bragging rights around the office and let them compete in the top 10 ROI listings.  If I remember correctly, a couple of the guys on there never blog or display their holdings or trades either, but they still make the top 10 lists.  Anyways, that's not a big deal, and it might cause more trouble than it's worth from a management perspective because people are bound to message employees and ask what they're investing in...but still, it's an idea. 

--I'm not suggesting that employees display their ROI's. I'm just saying that if they should be able to display anything trading related, that might be a possibility.  They might already be displaying their ROI's.  I can't remember seeing one though.

Also, the regulatory rules in this case are a bit silly.  Why should I care what Don or anybody else is implicitly "endorsing" by buying?  If Don or anyone else is displaying an ROI, there's a strong likelihood that the other community members are actually beating management's investing strategy.  I mean, no offense to Don or any of the other company employees, but if I was going to follow someone's lead, it would likely be DavidUmbrecht with a 647.38% three month ROI, or
buydow with a  253.72% three month ROI.  If Don or another employee was beating those investing strategies, only then would I consider following their lead (and if you are, then my hats off to you!).  --In this situation the regulartory concerns might be somewhat outdated because when they were written, they weren't designed to take into account the open community of TK that tries to put users and staff as equals in the community.   The rules weren't written with the possibility of clients and the brokerage sharing their trades in an equally open fashion in an environment in which a client might outperform the broker.    ...however, they still do hold some relevance I guess... I can envision people jumping on a stock "bandwagon" just because Don, Brian, etc bought it.  ...and there's my ramblings for the day. :)

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spshapiro

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spshapiro
    I assume that all public discourse has its basis, at least in part, the effort to sell me something.  I do not take this to be a very deep insight, but I recognize that it is frequently overlooked.  I don’t know if we should lay that fact to the poverty of our educational system or at the feet of the parents in this society.  Therefore I do not read anything you or anyone else posts as a statement without bias.  I equally well recognize that you and the staff are subject to regulations that we, the general public, are not.  Since, so far I’ve been fairly content with your operation, I would appreciate if you would stay out of the pokey and also not accrue fines which we, the clients of TK, would be forced in turn to share in.
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locogmac

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locogmac
While I agree with you Danny, the BigDog does have a point that whatever they hold will always have a higher implicit "endorsing" than regular folks. That's just the nature of humans, us. :)
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DannyUpshaw

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DannyUpshaw

Yea logomac, I agree.  I guess my general point isn't so much that I want all employees blogging and posting their stock trades all the time, so much as that the regulations have everyone, and I mean (apparently) everyone, at TK restricted to such a degree is a bit silly.  But well, that's the feds for ya.  The rules have good intentions though. :)  I don't consider myself commenting on TK so much as the effects of the law. 

hehe, but spshapiro is really hitting home.  just stay out of the "pokey" and avoid those fines. :)  That's the larger issue here, as Don pointed out.  Federal regulators aren't prone to "let things fly". hehe.

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spshapiro
    One more thing Danny:- when it comes to ROI's, you don't know what the asset basis is, or what level of risk was taken to achieve the ROI.  It is infinitely easier to register an outsized ROI when you are starting from a rather small basis or risking a greater % on each play.
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bigdog

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bigdog
Thanks, everyone, for all this great feedback - you explored some aspects of the question that I hadn't even considered.
 
Seems like the consensus is that it's perfectly fine by you that we're making absolutely certain we stay out of the "pokey", as Spshapiro put it, by not publishing our Certified Trades. Danny, you're probably also right in pointing out that the regulators are behind the times when it comes to addressing new models such as our community.  As the pioneers, we’re doing our best to lead the way for our regulators and define best practices in this all-new arena.  That means we do the best we can, for example, extrapolating rule interpretations that were written 10 years ago and which discuss broker participation in “internet chat rooms”. As life stands now, it’s just too easy to envision this scenario:  A staffer like Brian Overby, our Options Guy, could certainly wind up on the Leaderboard, and then imagine a client mimicking one of Brian’s trades, which then subsequently goes poorly.  Money is lost.  TradeKing is sued under the premise that publishing Brian’s trades was a tacit endorsement of the trade that was taken as a recommendation,  This is not at all beyond believable, sadly. Anyway, trust me - if I were allowed to post my ROI and trades, you'd all realize that my talents lie in running a great brokerage, not in timing stock picks or putting on the perfect options spread. In fact, I'm sure plenty of you would beat the pants off of me!
 
Spshapiro raised another good point, the value of viewing performance stats and other online data critically. It's true that one home-run will, in the short term, make a member's performance stats spike; but in the longer term, solid performance stats probably become more meaningful. That's due to  simple mathematics and not a way any member would "game" the stats, but it's a useful point to keep in mind. In general, we're trying to build out the new community with an eye towards transparency and accountability - generally helping you keep the right critical edge and improving the quality of member data that gets shared.  For members that share the amount or size of their trades, and their portfolio too, it is much easier to decipher what has caused certain spikes, but we are respecting that many TK clients have expressed a desire to keep certain things private, and we are allowing you all to sort out for yourselves what content has the most merit.
 
Thanks again - great stuff, all!
 
Don
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spshapiro

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spshapiro
    One more thing:- in stock games, like CNBC conducts, it always pays to 'shoot the moon', because there is a limited amount of time and only finishing first counts.  I don't know anyone who invests on this basis for themselves.  I believe that it is most likely that anyone who does this 'for real', doesn't do it for long.  I believe that it builds bad habits to invest on the basis of always going for broke.  One of my basic beliefs is that although it is frequently advised to 'let your winners ride', one will never go broke by cashing in on a winner.  Therefore I regularly make myself close a winning trade (not every one, just some at a regular interval.)
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bigdog

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bigdog

Yet another great point, Spshapiro, and I like your sound policy on
cashing in those winners. It can be so tempting to let those winning
trades ride forever, but once you've been burnt by that approach a
few times you start to realize the wisdom in that old Wall Street
saying: "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered." No use worrying
about what more might-have-been if you've cleared a healthy profit,
right?

Thanks for your contribution to this thread - I really learned a lot
from this discussion.

Be Good,
Don

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donatosr

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donatosr
Jr.   Your grandfather always said,"you can't get hurt making a profit"
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bigdog

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bigdog
Nice one, Dad! I feel like there are lots of variations to this saying on the Street (not that we always listen to any of them when we should!) Maybe I'll start compiling them on Post-it's and keep 'em close to the computer screen...
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mike14

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mike14
Thanks for that bigdog.. I respect that.. though I think anyone who trades should be held responsible for his or her own actions.. America stifles itself some times, going over board with regulations.
Cheers!
Mike.