http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/s_650755.html
Forum > Anothe example of why the simulus is not creating the jobs it should.
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Posted November 02, 2009 (02:52PM)
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Posted November 02, 2009 (03:15PM)
My brother in law had the same problem about 12 years ago, his shop was non-union and they do mostly state contracts.
They started to lose bids that were "union only" He'd been rejected by the union in the past because he had no inside references, no "contacts", but that was the time they were attempting to redo their public image. His shop joined the union, the shop now gets more work because of the increase in variey of work the union opened the up to. My brother in law, a casualty of union requirements, had to settle for a pay raise and increased benefits as a result, he then bought a home with the additional income, it was horrible, he was doing so well just treading water before that damned union stepped in and ruined everything!. |
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Posted November 02, 2009 (03:59PM)
incubus,
That was a very heartwarming example of anecdotal evidence. But the studies of the added cost (approching 50%) and loss of the multiplier effect for government projects, including schools. Perhaps the home your brother bought was one of the homes that seniors had to move out of because of out of control school tax increase s caused in part by the inflated cost of school construction mandated in the Davis Bacon Act. |
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Posted November 02, 2009 (04:09PM)
Oh Yes BD...when he bought that home, union representatives even showed up to help him kick the helpless seniors out on the street, it was horrible.
I'm curious, those studies you mention, were they done by the Lewin group? |
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Posted November 02, 2009 (04:34PM)
Incubus,
Here is what the PA Dept of Revenue has to say. http://www.revenue.state.pa.us/ptrr/site/default.asp The congressional record... http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec99/cr021199.htm |
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Posted November 02, 2009 (04:40PM)
And last but not least, the non partisan GAO. The congressional watchdog.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1867813491.html |
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Posted November 02, 2009 (06:11PM)
BD, you've missed my point altogether...a similar point Owl made to me months ago regarding the generalization that all financial executives are evil, and targeting the whole vs the underlying problem.
Unions have developed a tendency to over-price the value of SOME of the laborers and trades they represent ( I also know that certain branches of the AFL/CIO get garbage pay for some of their members), but you cannot get stuck on your focus of fault finding and blame with regard to the big picture, these issues are going to continue to arise as we are now confronted with the costs of doing business in a global environment where larger corporations now have the flexibility to simply migrate their work force to whatever country has the cheapest help with not so much as a thank you to the American consumer for the spending that got them where they are in the first place. I don't care if you're union or not, this will unquestionably have an adverse effect of the standard of living for all Americans, at least in the short term. Doug Kass just made a very similar argument on Fast Money tonight, the future doesn't look very bright for us, and it isn't unions that started this avalanche. Forget your hatred of unions for a few seconds, the fact that these issues are becoming more and more prominent is nothing more than an illumination of an even bigger problem, there may well be a time in the years to come where you may wish we had the ability to empower the middle class to attain greater incomes if what I think is happening continues without doing something....if PRD reads this, maybe it shines a light on my thinking over stimulus spending to generate jobs, at least in the short term while we "correct" to accommodate our newly enhanced exposure to global commerce. |
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Posted November 02, 2009 (09:53PM)
incubus said:
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ if PRD reads this, maybe it shines a light on my thinking over stimulus spending to generate jobs, at least in the short term while we "correct" to accommodate our newly enhanced exposure to global commerce. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ You missed my point. Had you clicked on the link it would become clear to you even reading the title. Article: GAO FAULTS DEPRESSION-ERA DAVIS-BACON ACT'S COSTS, COMPLEXITY FOR DELAY IN STIMULUS PROGRAM |
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Posted November 02, 2009 (10:09PM)
BD, it's going to be irrelevant, we won't have union sin a relatively short period of time because there won't be any jobs to need unions at the rate we're going.
I'm trying to tell you that the angst you might be readin about unions is likely a telltale of the underlying crisis with unemployment. You're obsessing about a rusty nail in a house thats falling apart. |
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Posted November 02, 2009 (10:20PM)
Suspend Davis Bacon and target the stimulus at infrastructure, and you would see American jobs. The last time I saw a Chinaman building an American railroad was on a rerun of "Kung Fu".
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Posted November 02, 2009 (10:35PM)
The Unions are deeply entrenched within our government employees, for some reason the government prefers collective bargaining. From the local level on up, if the unions lose private sector why should they care, they have the largest employer keeping them fat at our expense.
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Posted November 02, 2009 (11:09PM)
El Dorado.
We thought the stimulus was for all of us but if you are not a union company, you can't do the large stimulus projects.Just read this exectutive order on "Project Labor Agreements". http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ExecutiveOrderUseofProjectLaborAgreementsforFederalConstructionProjects/ 29 U.S.C 152 (5) The term "labor organization" means any organization of any kind, or any agency or employee representation committee or plan, in which employees participate and which exists for the purpose, in whole or in part, of dealing with employers concerning grievances, labor disputes, wages, rates of pay, hours of employment, or conditions of work. Translation-UNION |
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Posted November 02, 2009 (11:34PM)
Buydow, you and incubus put forth amazing debate. As a construction worker I’ve been on a few prevailing wage jobs. The Sub’s always find a way around the rules and pay less, no sympathy for them here.
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Posted November 03, 2009 (12:13AM)
El,
Think of it this way. If the government was going to spend 200 billion building roads and bridges, they could only build 8 projects with PLA's where they could build 10 projects if they let the 84% of "open shop" contractors bid. And that is still paying prevailing wage. If they also suspended the Davis Bacon Act for stimulus projects, it would save another 30%. That is 20 projects for the price of 10! Twice the bang for the buck. Twice the direct jobs, plus a double mutiplier. Construction workers spend money on break, lunch at the diner, couple of cold ones after work, tools at HD or Lowes, Flyers and Eagles tickets, etc. That new school would cost 2 million instead of 3 to 4 million. |
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Posted November 03, 2009 (12:43AM)
I once played a Led Zeppelin album backwards and it told me to join a union.
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Posted November 03, 2009 (12:47AM)
A friend of mine, electrician, just received a substantial settlement from a slimebag that pulled that stunt for two years straight, the guy was skimming the extra for himself, once the state got wind of it, he had to reimburse all employee's for the entire amount he skimmed. |
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Posted November 03, 2009 (12:57AM)
How sad for you! There, there.
Here is a nice link to an H1B visa forum to read to calm you down. http://murthyforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1024039761&f=4724019812&m=9991039591 |
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Posted November 03, 2009 (05:58AM)
It's really unfair that the stimulus jobs don't allow contractors who know how to speak Chinese and import very fast Chinese construction workers into the country for a temporary period be allowed to cash in on this pile of projects. I studied Chinese in college and I could make a deal. More efficient workers, less costs, We all win right!! Rent a few trailers, put 40 workers in each one. Put up all night lighting and work 2-3 shifts around the clock. Done as fast as the Chinese Olympics. Ship the workers back to China maybe and our kids if they're lucky might get a job at a convenience store and collect food stamps. Yes, it's not a union shop, that convenience store, but the Chinese construction worker's English isn't good enough for that job.. (yet).
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Posted November 03, 2009 (08:36AM)
More efficient = cheaper
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Posted November 03, 2009 (09:31AM)
datadae said:
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ It's really unfair that the stimulus jobs don't allow contractors who know how to speak Chinese and import very fast Chinese construction workers into the country for a temporary period be allowed to cash in on this pile of projects. I studied Chinese in college and I could make a deal. More efficient workers, less costs, We all win right!! Rent a few trailers, put 40 workers in each one. Put up all night lighting and work 2-3 shifts around the clock. Done as fast as the Chinese Olympics. Ship the workers back to China maybe and our kids if they're lucky might get a job at a convenience store and collect food stamps. Yes, it's not a union shop, that convenience store, but the Chinese construction worker's English isn't good enough for that job.. (yet). _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ What you are doing is creating a false choice. You would like people to think it is a choice between American and foreign workers. It is about the 84% of AMERICAN construction workers frozen out because Obama had to pay his election debt to the unions Here is a quote from the article that it sounds like you missed. "Well, a project labor agreement is an agreement that mandates using union-only labor, or meeting all the work rules and paying into the benefit programs of the unions, even if the workers are not union members. ... As a nonunion contractor with our own carpentry forces, we have never been party to a project labor agreement. To the best of my knowledge, I'm not aware of any project labor agreements on construction projects in the state of New Hampshire. ... Ninety-one percent of the construction workers, private construction workers in New Hampshire, work for nonunion companies. There are very, very few union contractors and subcontractors. So this essentially put out to bid a project in the center of New Hampshire (for which) no contractors or workers are going to be from New Hampshire.: Well, a project labor agreement is an agreement that mandates using union-only labor, or meeting all the work rules and paying into the benefit programs of the unions, even if the workers are not union members. ... As a nonunion contractor with our own carpentry forces, we have never been party to a project labor agreement. To the best of my knowledge, I'm not aware of any project labor agreements on construction projects in the state of New Hampshire. ..." |
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