sometimes a bad earnings report, isn't such a bad thing

Posted by spshapiro on July 10, 2012 (10:27PM)

As I wrote earlier, I think you should exercise some caution when buying at this time, and earnings season is proving that that might be advisable. It is infrequent that I buy thinking that it will be a very short term adventure, although I will on occasion take a quick profit. But this is about how to look at a disappointing earnings report.

Now I’m not talking about the RIMM’s of the world. When you are disappointed, and you have to stretch all credulity to come up with a story of salvation….hang it up. Take the little that remains and look for something new. Still I’ve heard noises today about poor expectations for INTC and AMAT. In both cases, it is mostly the expectation of a projection for a slow down in the second half. It is not that their market share is going to fall, but the industry is not projected to do well as a whole. They will still be the world’s largest chip maker, and the world largest maker of equipment to make chips, come next year at this time.  They have held those positions for more than the last ten years and I expect it will be hard for anyone to challenge them in the next ten (look at AMD).

If you have the stomach to whether the downturn, buying on a dip or selling puts in this type of situation, can prove to be very profitable. I have this week taken some profits in WTR, because six years ago, I bought in a similar situation.

Posted by The Otter Way on July 10, 2012 (10:40PM)

Hey there good look'n.... Yes... don't throw the baby out with the bath water.... But...


All the good upticks stocks over the last few days took the 1/2 closing ding dong witch is dead, or better known as the 3 piggies whose house was built with hay,stray, and whatever...

Most investors didn't see the the Spain side got a relief and there should be upticks in the morning...   This is not a correction but a reverse scare....

It is hard for long term players (holders) to capitalize and return profits in a short time frame other than calls and puts... and they will limit you on how quick on can turn and burn....

There are no, I REPEAT NO.... Less, Not More..... fewer traders now than at any time in history...

Stocked against the ole school..... Hedge funds are going broke... 

Posted by treeHamster on July 10, 2012 (11:12PM)

Market liquidity is running really low for the period (relative to previous years). This is part of the reason you aren't seeing more long term players walking in simply because the exit is too hard to get through if an emergency were to arise.

I was expecting liquidity to rise back more from May's lows starting about 3 weeks ago but the fact it hasn't starts to tell me we won't see any long terms for a while. It's really making me miss last summer and fall, when the VIX was super high and liquidity was super good. I'm almost at the point where I'm looking to quit trading on Monday and Tuesday entirely as IV decay is super high and nobody is buying (in other words there is more downside risk in any given trade than upside risk). Kinda hoping earnings go a bit better than expected (at least for techs) so that liquidity might rise even if it's just 25%.

Posted by made to trade on July 11, 2012 (09:57AM)


treeHamster said: Market liquidity is running really low for the period (relative to previous years). This is part of the reason you aren't seeing more long term players walking in simply because the exit is too hard to get through if an emergency were to arise.

I was expecting liquidity to rise back more from May's lows starting about 3 weeks ago but the fact it hasn't starts to tell me we won't see any long terms for a while. It's really making me miss last summer and fall, when the VIX was super high and liquidity was super good. I'm almost at the point where I'm looking to quit trading on Monday and Tuesday entirely as IV decay is super high and nobody is buying (in other words there is more downside risk in any given trade than upside risk). Kinda hoping earnings go a bit better than expected (at least for techs) so that liquidity might rise even if it's just 25%.

 What's your gauge of liquidity?  Volume on indices/individual stocks?

I do like the news driven market though.

Posted by TampaJake on July 11, 2012 (01:36PM)

SP ... good post. Interesting you brought up these as I have sold some RIMM puts recently. Therefore I thought a little comparison shopping might be in order.

I was looking at the July 20 puts for RIMM and INTC just now and I actually like the RIMM trade a little better. (selling the puts that is)

RIMM has already reported earnings and the new was pretty dismal. Since then the stock has found some support around 7.50 and actually broke back above $8 last week. The $7 puts can be sold for $14 as I write. On a $4900 committment that is $88.50 (after commissions). 

INTC is at $25.38 and selling 2 of the $25 puts will net approximately  $71.75 with a committment of $5000. While $16.75 is not a whole lot of difference, in terms of what it means in APR, it is quite a difference.

If you could exit either position in 10 days with the puts still out of the money, that $16.75 over a 10 day period is an additional 12-13% yield. Of course there are no guarantees. If INTC has a substandard report on July 17th the chance of the puts being in the money at expiration is pretty good in my opinion.

OF says the delta is somewhat of an indication of the chances that the option will be in the money at expiration. Not sure about that, especially at earnings time, but the delta of the RIMM $7 puts is lower than the INTC $25 puts.

Disclosure: I have a long position in RIMM.

Posted by spshapiro on July 11, 2012 (05:06PM)

TJ, The analysis of puts of one vs. the other, clearly favors RIMM by the percentage return, although to be quite honest, neither of them passes my ‘worth getting out of bed for’ test. If I’m risking $5000, I want more of a return.  But this percentage return test, presupposes that both stocks are worth owning.  I’ve held INTC for more than 11 years in the current run; although I’ve bought and sold some along the way, I figure that it will possibly be a position in my estate. Can you say the same about RIMM?

Sure I know, you might be out of it next week, next month, but when I sell a put, I contemplate whether I would be willing to hold the position over time. I will admit that if there is a RIMM in 5 years, you would do better holding it than INTC, because it would only be there if it did a Lazarus act. But between you and me, I think that the odds on that are growing shorter each day, and in five years I think the stock will be in the same place as either of the Lenin/Lennon twins.

Posted by TampaJake on July 11, 2012 (11:10PM)

SP... agreed that RIMM is probably not the long term hold that INTC may be, but if you could capture the $88.50 and hold the position for 10 days or less that is more than worthwhile for me. 88.50/4900/10*365 = 65.92% on an annual basis. The fact that the position could wind up ITM can muddy the waters considerably.
I will not be putting this play on as I do not want to increase my current RIMM exposure.

I did have some nice plays on FB, CHK and others over the past 3 weeks. This week I am seeing some red.

Posted by spshapiro on July 12, 2012 (12:04AM)

Ain’t we all, but the point isn’t whether we are up for the week or not.  I long ago came to accept that not every week, month, even year will be up (I hate when the year isn’t up and only allow that occasionally.) So the question isn’t whether there will be forward and back, only whether the forward well outweighs the back. So far clearly it does. If it didn’t, I’d say it was time to reconsider how I trade.

One of the things I’ve come to is in order to keep the wins ahead of the losses, two major things are necessary. One limit the losses. And two, make sure the wins are worthwhile. When you play for very small wins, all it takes is one good to knock out a month of wins. The losses, no matter how hard you try will snowball faster than the wins pile up. If your wins are ‘bigger’, then maybe a loss only kills two or three, maybe four wins. My wins in options is well in excess of 90%, (there’s a reason why I’m a writer, not a buyer.) Stocks I don’t do nearly as well; still better than 50% but the losses in stocks (as well as the wins) are always much bigger.

When I said that I had been and would be selling, I am doing so, to try to set up for nice rise in the future.  In the words of a better reporter than me, “Goodnight, and good luck.”    

Posted by spshapiro on July 12, 2012 (08:12AM)

To follow up, TJ, I just did the calculations. Of 75 options trades this year, 11 are still open, so the outcome is yet to be determined. Of the 64 which have been closed, 4 were closed at a loss. Six expired worthless, so the premiums I received were 100% gains. Where it gets tricky is those that were assigned. Seventeen were assigned, which is a greater than normal average for me (just over 25%, where my normal is half that.) Of the assigned, 5 were covered calls. Of course it is possible to look at the trade as a loser, because the underlying stock, went on to achieve a gain which I might not have fully participated in, but I find that logic as appealing as listening to a multimillionaire crying about why he can’t become a billionaire…not my preferred form of entertainment. Assigned covered calls mean to me I captured the full premium, and I got a further capital gain (since I don’t sell ITM calls). That leaves 12 of 64 closed options trades (19%). When I sell a put which is exercised against me, it is not possible to look at this as a completely closed system. After all, I’m now holding a stock which could appreciate or continue to depreciate. If I should go on to sell the stock, due to further deterioration or the fear of it, it seems clear the original trade could be seen as a loser, but I haven’t done so in any of these cases. This is why I said stock selection of the underlying of the option, is so important. Of the 12, 7 are now trading below the exercise price, but I have turned around and sold calls against some of them. The jury is still out. But even if I do worse than my norm and half of them go south, that means 54 of 64 trades will finish as winners. I can live with that.    

Posted by TampaJake on July 12, 2012 (09:12PM)


SP ... I have 25 options trades since June 11th and of those 10 are open.  I lost on one and closed the other 14 for nice gains. I am expecting to post a nice gain on a NFLX 80 put tomorrow as it should expire worthless. The other 9 options are ITM some a little deeper than I would like, but no panic. A good push on the DJIA back to 12,700 should help to liquidate most of those positions. My only loss was on a GRPN put that I bought back. Wish I had rolled that one 'cause the following week it was back out of the money.

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