So I'm tired of arguing in multiple threads that a true utopia in the US, that some of you seem to want, is possible. Therefore I say lets go ahead an figure it out using fair facts (not skewed ones like applying 3rd world medical costs to the US per person) and do the accounting to see what is actually possible.
If you wanna have some opinion about something, go to another thread, this is simply for accounting to see what possible by the numbers, nothing more, nothing less.
What we will need:
1) Total income for the US for any of the 6 years before the economic downturn and then for 2011 (since 2012 isn't out yet).
2) Population of the US for the associated years in statement 1.
3) Cost of healthcare per person for the associated years in statement 1.
4) Average cost of a house for the associated years in statement 1.
5) Cost of living (small variation in the past 10 years so just the pre-meltdown number should work).
6) Average cost of education for the associated years in statement 1.
If you can think of any other required service that isn't grouped into one of the above, state it and state why. The ones listed above are the ones outlined as part of the "American dream".
For each data fact provided, please also state source (credible sources only, wikipedia should be ok for most as it's fairly regulated at this point).
Follow posts
(on a side note, I dislike this TK forums outdated structure. I accidentally hit return while editing the image above, and accidentally posted. So then I try to edit it, but apparently I can't add another image in "edit mode") I would have deleted this post, which also happened because i hit the wrong key, but I can't delete a post.
I noticed you didn't bother to present any numbers yourself because you understand completely that the premise of your own thread is a cynical one.
A democracy with a TRUE, non monopolist, free market capitalist system acknowledges that the concentration of power can indenture & overwhelm the whole.
The difference, decisions about your liberty, freedom and wealth are made by individuals you vote for, or, those decisions are made by the most wealthy winners of the game of Social Darwinism, A.K.A. - Fascism.
- Theodore Roosevelt
( Source: The Atlantic )
True Utopia, possible or not (facts, no opinions, only please)
Displaying entries 1 - 20 of 34 forum posts in total
12
7) A reason to live
8) Liberty to pursue happiness
8) Liberty to pursue happiness
First, the word "utopia" is highly subjective, meaning it is an opinion. But, for the sake of your post's intent, we'll look past that.
Rather than the aggregate US income, we need to look at the distribution of income.
(this chart is based on 2005 data).
Notice the gap between the median and mean. The more the "rich get richer", the wider that gap will grow.
Rather than the aggregate US income, we need to look at the distribution of income.
(this chart is based on 2005 data).
Notice the gap between the median and mean. The more the "rich get richer", the wider that gap will grow.
(on a side note, I dislike this TK forums outdated structure. I accidentally hit return while editing the image above, and accidentally posted. So then I try to edit it, but apparently I can't add another image in "edit mode") I would have deleted this post, which also happened because i hit the wrong key, but I can't delete a post.
So, moving on ...
(Map of income inequality based on 2006 data) (edit: 2000 data - it won't let me change the linked text - ugh)
If we are to make the US a "utopia", we'll need to smooth this map out a bit. I think the commonly used word for that is "socialism".
Here's the Per Capita Personal Income by State, 1990 to 2011
(Map of income inequality based on 2006 data) (edit: 2000 data - it won't let me change the linked text - ugh)
If we are to make the US a "utopia", we'll need to smooth this map out a bit. I think the commonly used word for that is "socialism".
Here's the Per Capita Personal Income by State, 1990 to 2011
On to real estate:
In Atlanta, the average house goes for about 200k. In greater Georgia, it would be something like 75k for a comparable house. The prices are different everywhere.
What's more important is the housing / income ratio.
( map by Scott Pennington of the Matin Prosperity Group )
In Atlanta, the average house goes for about 200k. In greater Georgia, it would be something like 75k for a comparable house. The prices are different everywhere.
What's more important is the housing / income ratio.
( map by Scott Pennington of the Matin Prosperity Group )
Isn't it "accounting" that usually starts the trouble? Like the accounting at Worldcom and Enron and Goldman Sachs advising Greece. Those were all truly "utopian" situations. How about the "accounting" of the unemployment rate or the "accounting" of the budget deficit under the Bush administration, leaving war costs out of the number.treeHamster said: If you wanna have some opinion about something, go to another thread, this is simply for accounting to see what possible by the numbers, nothing more, nothing less.
I noticed you didn't bother to present any numbers yourself because you understand completely that the premise of your own thread is a cynical one.
Respectfully: Here's a place to express opinions on this topic.
Doougle, I wanted the total income because I was going to say if it was distributed evenly (aka, the average). I'm not sure if using the presented "average" income in America is quite as accurate as it really is.
MTD, I hadn't present any numbers myself because I was going to bed and figured people would come up with the data before I posted again.
I'm not looking for how things are distributed in various places. I'm looking at how much would it be and is it possible if cost and benefits were spread out completely equally (and yes that's basically socialism). There isn't anything cynical about this thread if you believe it's possible. In science we look to find what is possible. We like to put our opinion in but first we look to see what the limits of (current) science allow to see if it's physically possible. That's all I'm doing here, is to see if it's even in a relative realm of possibility.
For example if the average income per person per year is $20k and all the costs listed add up to like $15k/year, then we know that even given an outlying fudge factor of like 20%, that it's still within the system's limits given the input. If the cost comes out to be like $25k then we know it's not possible and you then have to prioritize what is most important. I'd be happy to show it's possible because then I'd learn something. If it's not possible, I learn something as well.
I'll go ahead and more clearly state that it's a fiscal utopia we are looking for given the services many are asking for such as outlined in the first post. So if you guys wanna help figure out if the system has the fiscal resources, feel free to contribute.
MTD, I hadn't present any numbers myself because I was going to bed and figured people would come up with the data before I posted again.
I'm not looking for how things are distributed in various places. I'm looking at how much would it be and is it possible if cost and benefits were spread out completely equally (and yes that's basically socialism). There isn't anything cynical about this thread if you believe it's possible. In science we look to find what is possible. We like to put our opinion in but first we look to see what the limits of (current) science allow to see if it's physically possible. That's all I'm doing here, is to see if it's even in a relative realm of possibility.
For example if the average income per person per year is $20k and all the costs listed add up to like $15k/year, then we know that even given an outlying fudge factor of like 20%, that it's still within the system's limits given the input. If the cost comes out to be like $25k then we know it's not possible and you then have to prioritize what is most important. I'd be happy to show it's possible because then I'd learn something. If it's not possible, I learn something as well.
I'll go ahead and more clearly state that it's a fiscal utopia we are looking for given the services many are asking for such as outlined in the first post. So if you guys wanna help figure out if the system has the fiscal resources, feel free to contribute.
Tree, here's a chart that you can use to estimate the "average" income.
Thanks to your post, I found a neat source for this and other data. They have data sets, calculators and chart tools.
It's called Measuring Worth. (I just made the above chart by checking GDP and Population, then entered year range.)
Thanks to your post, I found a neat source for this and other data. They have data sets, calculators and chart tools.
It's called Measuring Worth. (I just made the above chart by checking GDP and Population, then entered year range.)
Total US income for 2011 = $12.98 Trillion.
Divided by 311 million Americans = $41,741 for every man, woman & child
That comes to a.MEAN average of $108,526 for every US Household.
90% of US households now live on less than $32,000 per year.
Over the Bush administration, middle class wages fell 6%, yet total US income increased by 71%.,
The beneficiaries of that income growth now pay the lowest tax rates in a century (for cap gains), lowest income tax rates in 30 years.
Consumer debt has multiplied 700% since 1980, of the current $2.6 Trillion in consumer debt, $1 Trillion of that debt was incurred during the Bush administration since 2000.
Americans have gradually become acclimated to using debt in place of wages to offset increasing costs of living in combination with stagnant wage growth.
Healthcare costs have increased over 300% since 1980, education costs.have increased by 440% since 1980, median wages have only doubled (mindful, median is NOT mean)
The Fed has decreased rates to counter this fiscal imbalance, to counter a lack of responsible tax, regulatory and fiscal policy from Congress....only availing low interest credit in order to offset the real problem.
While we obsess over government debt being at almost 100% of GDP, little attention is paid to the fact that consumer debt is wavering around 200% of total wages....that percentage ratio is even more staggering when you factor the lower 90% income group debt to wage ratio.
Net worth -
The net worth of the Walton family (of Walmart fame) equals the net worth of the bottom 30% of the US populace.
Meanwhile, 50% of Walmart employee's are on food stamps.
The net worth of the top 40 wealthiest Americans equals the net worth of the bottom 50% - 155 million Americans are worth 40.
Divided by 311 million Americans = $41,741 for every man, woman & child
That comes to a.MEAN average of $108,526 for every US Household.
90% of US households now live on less than $32,000 per year.
Over the Bush administration, middle class wages fell 6%, yet total US income increased by 71%.,
The beneficiaries of that income growth now pay the lowest tax rates in a century (for cap gains), lowest income tax rates in 30 years.
Consumer debt has multiplied 700% since 1980, of the current $2.6 Trillion in consumer debt, $1 Trillion of that debt was incurred during the Bush administration since 2000.
Americans have gradually become acclimated to using debt in place of wages to offset increasing costs of living in combination with stagnant wage growth.
Healthcare costs have increased over 300% since 1980, education costs.have increased by 440% since 1980, median wages have only doubled (mindful, median is NOT mean)
The Fed has decreased rates to counter this fiscal imbalance, to counter a lack of responsible tax, regulatory and fiscal policy from Congress....only availing low interest credit in order to offset the real problem.
While we obsess over government debt being at almost 100% of GDP, little attention is paid to the fact that consumer debt is wavering around 200% of total wages....that percentage ratio is even more staggering when you factor the lower 90% income group debt to wage ratio.
Net worth -
The net worth of the Walton family (of Walmart fame) equals the net worth of the bottom 30% of the US populace.
Meanwhile, 50% of Walmart employee's are on food stamps.
The net worth of the top 40 wealthiest Americans equals the net worth of the bottom 50% - 155 million Americans are worth 40.
That is what a capitalist society is. There has to be someone controlling most of the economic power this country has AND it can't be Obama. If that is what you want, go to France, they are doing a real bang up job. Your story is really getting old.
A monarchy, oligarchy or dictatorship is the belief and acceptance that "there has to be someone in control".Bayou Steve said: That is what a capitalist society is. There has to be someone controlling most of the economic power this country has AND it can't be Obama. If that is what you want, go to France, they are doing a real bang up job. Your story is really getting old.
A democracy with a TRUE, non monopolist, free market capitalist system acknowledges that the concentration of power can indenture & overwhelm the whole.
The difference, decisions about your liberty, freedom and wealth are made by individuals you vote for, or, those decisions are made by the most wealthy winners of the game of Social Darwinism, A.K.A. - Fascism.
Please illustrate to me when this country did not have the few controlling most of the economy. So your Utopia would have a purely democratic nature?
By the way, I like to be able to contribute to those candidates that support my thoughts about freedom and liberty. Call it fascism if you want but the truth about the nature of this country is that if you succumb to the lie that the less affluent in this country don't have opportunity, you are not right in the head. It also gives them an excuse.
I also have a question about the sincerity of the less affluent as to why in this country of abundance can they not improve their situation. It comes from hard work from the day you start your education until the day you die. This country more than any other provides the means through freedom to accomplish this.
My paternal ancestors came to this country in 1760, escaping the blight that had become Europe. The family flourished and became successful even though they were just farmers. It is a testament to why the system works and I am sure there are millions of similar stories.
By the way, I like to be able to contribute to those candidates that support my thoughts about freedom and liberty. Call it fascism if you want but the truth about the nature of this country is that if you succumb to the lie that the less affluent in this country don't have opportunity, you are not right in the head. It also gives them an excuse.
I also have a question about the sincerity of the less affluent as to why in this country of abundance can they not improve their situation. It comes from hard work from the day you start your education until the day you die. This country more than any other provides the means through freedom to accomplish this.
My paternal ancestors came to this country in 1760, escaping the blight that had become Europe. The family flourished and became successful even though they were just farmers. It is a testament to why the system works and I am sure there are millions of similar stories.
"Now, this means that our government, National and State, must be freed from the sinister influence or control of special interests. Exactly as the special interests of cotton and slavery threatened our political integrity before the Civil War, so now the great special business interests too often control and corrupt the men and methods of government for their own profit. "Bayou Steve said: Please illustrate to me when this country did not have the few controlling most of the economy.
- Theodore Roosevelt
Not opinion, just commentary regarding Florida: Florida is a large retirement state, so it's a given that the income levels will be comparatively lower with respect to housing costs.doougle said: On to real estate:
In Atlanta, the average house goes for about 200k. In greater Georgia, it would be something like 75k for a comparable house. The prices are different everywhere.
What's more important is the housing / income ratio.
( map by Scott Pennington of the Matin Prosperity Group )
It's not about some people having more than others. It's about the trend.Bayou Steve said: Please illustrate to me when this country did not have the few controlling most of the economy.
( Source: The Atlantic )
Steve, your opinions are not unique, so I'm not trying to pick on you. You made a few points that I'd like to counter-point.
"By the way, I like to be able to contribute to those candidates that support my thoughts about freedom and liberty."
"By the way, I like to be able to contribute to those candidates that support my thoughts about freedom and liberty."
Sheldon Adelson alone has pledged 100 million dollars to Mitt. That's about 100 times more money than I will make in my lifetime. So, what does that do to my political voice?
"I also have a question about the sincerity of the less affluent as to why in this country of abundance can they not improve their situation."
The "less affluent" are not a common body. Some could probably do better, others spend their lives working hard and trying to get by. I think it's ridiculous to question their sincerity as a group.
"My paternal ancestors came to this country in 1760, escaping the blight that had become Europe."
Now, re-imagine that your parents are trying to escape the economic blight of Mexico in 2005. Still heroes? Still welcome? Would it help if I point out many of them are farmers?
"I also have a question about the sincerity of the less affluent as to why in this country of abundance can they not improve their situation."
The "less affluent" are not a common body. Some could probably do better, others spend their lives working hard and trying to get by. I think it's ridiculous to question their sincerity as a group.
"My paternal ancestors came to this country in 1760, escaping the blight that had become Europe."
Now, re-imagine that your parents are trying to escape the economic blight of Mexico in 2005. Still heroes? Still welcome? Would it help if I point out many of them are farmers?
It's interesting to me that of the two competing "Utopian" threads, it's the one that purports to deal with facts only that has nearly three times the response (I realize it was also first to the board).
Throughout history it has been hard times (think the Plague) that has peaked the interest in utopian fantasies, millennialism (end of world) and the pointing to the Other as the root of problems. All under the guise of absolute fact.
All of this may likely get worse in the years ahead or perhaps humanity is now at a point with instant communications and access to the internet where it can overcome its tendency to cannibalize itself.
Throughout history it has been hard times (think the Plague) that has peaked the interest in utopian fantasies, millennialism (end of world) and the pointing to the Other as the root of problems. All under the guise of absolute fact.
All of this may likely get worse in the years ahead or perhaps humanity is now at a point with instant communications and access to the internet where it can overcome its tendency to cannibalize itself.
Displaying entries 1 - 20 of 34 forum posts in total
12
You must Log In to post to this forum.
Not a member? Register Now to …
- See what other traders are doing
- Make your own trades public
- Share your thoughts on a trade
- Join or start a group
- Connect with like-minded traders
